Curse

Bug John · Jan 13, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKB48

Get over it....omg [Palm Strike] got a 4 second recharge!!!! OH NO!!!THE WORLD IS ENDING!!!

Except it's only not, too bad for you guys.

The sin can't do a shit after palm strike, all the monk needed is to put up a block, even [shield bash] would do perfectly and then what? Assa needs skill chains to attack, and once you blocked one of the chains, the rest go BOOM.

And if he spam, so what? Assa don't have a 100 energy pool like eles, so they can at best spam [Palm Strike] 6 or 7 times, with a 4 second lag in between each of them. So the monk, assuming he is decent(not great, only decent) can easily survive the “onslaught” of the palm strikes.

This thread is getting waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too old

/Close (sorry, one less place for you guys to whine)

yes, blocking can counter melee, any kind of melee

and, you know what ? anti melee hexes / conditions can shut them down too

but that doesn't make PS sins balanced

balanced means a viable alternative among others, when you can see a build EVERYWHERE in half of the teams, there might be a problem

btw, after reading your post, your pvp experience seem quite low...

Reverend Dr · Jan 13, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Why assassins suck.

Classes are largely defined by their primary characteristic. If a primary characteristic is unused, then the entire reason to run that class as a primary is lost. The description for Critical Strikes states “The chance for critical hits increases 1% for each attribute point spent in Critical Strikes. For each critical hit, the Assassin receives one energy at rank three and above, two energy at rank eight and above, and three energy at rank thirteen and above.” This attribute works with attacks, both skill attacks and auto-attacks, the assassin is an attacking class.

While an assassin can use any type of weapon via sub-profession, look at the weapon: the dagger. First look at some auto attack numbers. Wands meeting only the base requirements, which at 9 in any caster attribute is already met by any caster, deal 13 damage per second. An axe at 12 + 1 + 1 costing 97 attribute points deals 23 damage a second. Daggers at 11 + 1 + 1 and critical strikes 11 + 1 costing 154 attribute points deals approximately 22 damage per second(*). Wands receive no further damage increase aside from meeting the weapon requirement, I feel these numbers are important as a no-requirement baseline. Daggers, despite having a much higher attribute point cost, still fall behind the damage of the axe.

(*)Dagger damage, is dependant upon double attacking and critical hits from the dagger mastery and critical strike. I have had this damage vary by over 500 points during a three minute period. At a total damage of around 4,000 and the 500 being a good 1/8 variance, which just did not appear with wand or axe, I did not feel like exhausting as many tests as it would require for a definitive test, but the numbers did appear to converge at 22 and I stand by what I wrote.

Raw DPS is certainly not the whole picture, now look at skills. Wands have no attack skills. Daggers have only energy based skills, further arranged by lead, off-hand, and dual which make up the attack chain. Axe predominantly uses adrenaline. The more a warrior hits the more adrenaline they have, the more an assassin hits the more energy they have, seems fair enough. However a warrior with more adrenaline gets off more adrenal based skills, an assassin with more energy does not get off more energy based skills as those skills are limited by recharge.

We have yet to address increased attack speed. This will obviously increase raw DPS and will increase base DPS proportionally When this is combined with the energy vs. adrenal nature of the weapons the axe will be able to get off even more attack skills while the dagger is still limited by the nature of recharge. Increased attack speed will also increase the skill based damage of the warrior, but will not increase the skill based damage of the assassin. Worth noting is that warriors have multiple IAS skills and the assassin class has no native IAS skill, requiring a commitment of the sub-profession and locking out any possible other sub-profession abilities. Also worth noting is that the assassin’s primary attribute is already applied into its raw DPS, but the warrior’s main attribute adds extra damage on skill usage.

Attack commitment must also be considered. A warrior is only as committed to a target as his physical relation to another target. Simply how long it takes him to walk to a new target. An assassin is committed through the attack chain. There is no way around the attack chain and due to the limited number of skills on a bar only one attack chain can viably be brought. Additionally an assassin also has the warrior’s limitation of target commitment and must be next to the character they are attacking. The assassin has the shadow stepping tool (more on this later) that can circumvent this. Shadow stepping is not free, costing both energy and a skill slot. A warrior will switch targets sometimes as often as once a swing and with enemy targeting shadow steps at the lowest recharge of twenty seconds, shadow stepping just cannot keep up. Any defensive ability, not necessarily limited to protection prayers, in effect on a target will usually force a change in target. For a warrior this is as simple as movement and an adrenal skill lost to block is a loss of that single adrenal skill. The assassin has the same movement issue as the warrior, but an assassin skill lost to block is the lost of not just the rest of the chain, but any further chain until that skill recharges.

At this point it should not be hard to conclude one very important thing about the dagger weapon: Daggers simply cannot effectively be used to pressure.

What is left for the dagger? The attack chain, or more generally called the spike. This is the unloading of damage, in this case attack skills, in a short time window. The assassin’s spike will do one of two things, either kill the target, or not kill the target.

If the attack chain will not kill the target, then it and by association the assassin will be regulated to spike assist. Now any class can spike assist, but it seems odd for the assassin to be a melee regulated to spike assist and having to spend three, four, or five of their skill slots on spike assist. While their assist on the spike is much larger, as well it should devoting more than usual skills to spike assist, it also takes much longer for all of the assassin’s skills to play out resulting in a larger window for the target to receive assistance. This larger window often contrary to the fundamental idea behind the spike.

If the attack chain will kill the target then the assassin is capable of an unassisted solo kill. Any thought and aptitude in creating the assassin’s chain has been exerted prior to placing the skills on the bar; existing chains can simply and effortlessly be copied. Once the attack chain is on the bar executing the chain merely requires activation of the skills in order. This is to say pressing buttons in order will cause the imminent threat of player death.

Look at this in regards to the history of the assassin. The assassin saw very little use in eight versus eight combat, but was abundant in four versus four arenas. In the smaller arenas an individuals skills weigh more heavily, the attack chain makes a greater threat, and there are less people to rely on for support. When assassins have been brought into the eight man arenas their intention is to split their opponent into smaller groups akin to the smaller arenas. The assassin’s threat in eight man fights is terrible, it is and has always be forced to fight in situations with lower numbers (I will address the few exceptions in a moment).

A killing chain takes only as much skill as it takes to activate skills in order and this creates the threat of a kill. If nothing is done a character will take a death. This requires no real skill to create, but it takes skill, the identifying of the chain and the coordinated reacting to the chain, to counter. The further people involved in the combat, the more important the actions of the individual and the more powerful the killing chain. The reward is high, the skill level required is low; a very bad combination for a competitive game.

In arenas with lower number of players, the killing chain is more effective and as a factor of skill versus reward horribly overpowered. It is only seen in eight man arenas when attempted to reduce the eight men to fewer numbers where its attack chain is overpowered. As such a weapon that is overpowered low number skirmishes, and fundamentally underpowered in full eight versus eight situations is a poorly designed weapon. Daggers by design, suck.

Aside: Here is the footnotes of the assassin builds seen in 8v8 themed builds. The permeations of A/D which will be covered in the next section and the shattering assault chain. The shattering assault chain is unblockable and strips protective enchantments. This does two things, first it not subject to a large number common defenses that will stop the attack chain and require target switching, second it removes any enchants the most common on an attacked target to be removed supporting any other characters spiking that target.

Now an assassin does have the option of wielding weapons belonging to its sub-profession. This innately puts the assassin at the disadvantage of not having runes or headpieces to support the weapon and begs the question of why use an assassin primary in the first place. The only possible answer is to use critical strikes. This has seen use almost exclusively with the dervish’s scythe as the critical damage from scythes is huge and only in pure spike oriented builds. This isn’t a question of the assassin’s balance, but of the scythe’s balance. Scythe damage has raised issues of balance, but that is a question of the dervish and is beyond the scope of this post.

Shadow stepping is a mechanic that allows instant teleportation to a target. Prior to its introduction movement and positioning were of top importance. Crippling shot had its energy increased from 10 to 15, yet never saw any reduced use in play. Teams could mitigate tons of damage by proper positioning and kiting. Against top teams a warrior could not venture into the backline without receiving some sort of damage mitigating hex/condition. This was skillful play being rewarded.

Shadow stepping removed a significant bit of this. Assassins or any melee class with an assassin sub-profession could immediately shadow step into the backline and no amount of proper positioning on the target’s part would allow for more time to react. That was the entire point of positioning, a warrior headed into the backline was targeting the backline. After shadow stepping was introduced a melee could immediately switch from linebacking to full on offensive spiking without the movements that give it away.

While shadow stepping skills themselves were placed upon a large enough recharge that they cannot be used for general pressure switching, their use during powerful spiking, team pushes, and attacking targets away from the group makes the times that positioning was most important be unaffected by positioning. It took a skillful element from the game and not remove it, but make it largely unimportant.

In reacting to this we have had a switch from active defenses, which include positioning, to more passive defenses and the “defensive web.” I am not going to go into a discussion of the defensive web, but I and many others consider it to be a symptom of the poor health of a competitive game.

My argument is that shadow stepping is a poorly designed mechanic as it removes the advantage of positioning at the time positioning is most important and it supported in creating and requiring a defensive web. Shadow stepping, as a mechanic, sucks.

Assassins also have a variety of spells including enchantments and hexes. This creates a conundrum as a casting assassin is an assassin who is not attacking and vice versa. The most appropriate time to be casting is paradoxically the most appropriate time for the assassin to be attacking. Target hexes and self buffs give away the attack chain and can often reduce the chain’s effectiveness more than it supports. Other spells and effects may best be most opportune to cast while the assassin is in the middle of an attack chain and must abandon the chain in order to catch the opportune cast. This is largely why casters are casters and melee are melee, it is often just practically not possible to do both at once. This is not to say that assassin casting skills are not useful. However this is saying that if assassin spells are useful, they are more useful on a non-assassin caster.

To further confound the problem exists the skill deadly paradox. This skill has no use upon a dagger wielding assassin, but creates problems with all non-attack assassin skills. Part of a spells balance is derived from its recharge time. Spells that are strong without deadly paradox can easily become too strong with it. Other spells might not be strong enough until pared with deadly paradox. The skill is correctly labeled as it does indeed create a paradox the more viable spells the assassin has, the less balanced the class.

A melee assassin with spells is a conflicting interest, so why not just have an assassin that is only a caster? Deadly arts and Shadow arts have no wands, staves, nor foci. The assassin primary attribute is just outright bad for a caster. The only advantages would be headpieces and runes for the attribute lines. So far there has been only one template for caster assassins, it acts like a ranged attack chain, relies entirely upon deadly paradox, and other than using spells instead of attacks, shares no other caster characteristics. These assassins are not casters.

The assassin was designed to be a melee, casting fundamentally conflicts with the nature of being melee. Assassins themselves make poor casters. The assassin spells fit better on non-assassins. Assassin spells are poorly designed, assassin spells suck.

In conclusion every aspect about the assassin class is flawed at a fundamental level. No amount of numbers tweaking is going to change it. The only thing that would is a complete ground up redesign. Assassins suck.

MMSDome · Jan 13, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

tl;dr

You failed when you said assassins suck.

Damian979 · Jan 13, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

So.....many words.....and here, I can only think of one.

Adapt

FoxBat · Jan 13, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

This build isn't run in dual ranger anymore, barely shows up in smiteway or sinsplit. So I guess permacripple wuz gud.

wtfisgoingon · Jan 13, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

In attempt to change the Sin combat styles, Anet decides to change one skill, Palm Strike. This skill made the Sin more able to be played more like the War and Derv in high end PvP. This means that all the melees now require positioning.

But who the hell came up with the bullshit of positioning being important in GW?
Exactly, high end PvPers made this crap up, not Anet, if Anet did not want to ruin the positioning elements of high end PvP, they never would have introduced Shadow Steps.

So my point is that high end PvPers made the bullshit up about positioning which got the zombie moron skill balancer IZZY the thought to screw Shadow Steps over. Load of crap.... seriously

LifesRestorer · Jan 14, 2009, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

In attempt to change the Sin combat styles, Anet decides to change one skill, Palm Strike. This skill made the Sin more able to be played more like the War and Derv in high end PvP. This means that all the melees now require positioning.

But who the hell came up with the bullshit of positioning being important in GW?
Exactly, high end PvPers made this crap up, not Anet, if Anet did not want to ruin the positioning elements of high end PvP, they never would have introduced Shadow Steps.

So my point is that high end PvPers made the bullshit up about positioning which got the zombie moron skill balancer IZZY the thought to screw Shadow Steps over. Load of crap.... seriously

I think this may be the greatest post I have ever seen in the history of guru. If you need me to explain why, I think you need to retake pre-school.

Anyway, back on topic:

Palm strike proves to be paticularly broken in HA at the moment. Unlike GvG, monks do not have the choice of running stances and are forced to run channeling. Due to the positioning element in HA being almost non-existent, everyone is in casting distance of each other, making monks easy targets for rediculous AI that can catch 1/4 casts at will. These heroes are also able to carry an extremely powerful AoE skill, which when combined with the compact fighting areas in HA maps, palm strikes spammable cripple on 4s recharge and a knockdown every 8 make it almost impossible to defend against.

In GvG at the moment maps are much larger so it is harder for multiple targets to be hit by AoE. Also every character seems to be running at least a speed boost or a block stance at the moment so this makes it double as hard to do anything.

Bottom line: This skill is only effecting HA and is 100x less of a problem in GvG at the moment, and as everyone says, no one gives a rat's ass about HA balance and the less of a shithole which is GvG has priority over what skills should be updated (which it should, so don't try and turn this into me saying HA should have priority)

Krill · Jan 14, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

This skill made the Sin more able to be played more like the War and Derv in high end PvP. This means that all the melees now require positioning.

Wrong, a PS sin is superior to the derv class in every way atm except some spike builds where wounding + chilling + mystic is cleaner, faster, and the derv is only there to do that. Not that I want to see dervs back in play after we went through an equally shitty meta with them last year, but let's get the facts strait.

The only comparable warrior bar is WE axe, essentially the same thing just hitting attack skills over n over for big pressure and a reasonably powerful spike. WE is bad for the same reason sins and dervs are. I'm sorry if u don't understand why.

And btw the problem with PS isn't bad players having more damage / annoyance output than they should like RaO's, it's players that have a clue abusing the hell out of it.

draxynnic · Jan 14, 2009, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

Yeah right... just because a small handful of internet forum QQers complain about the profession Assassin, you actually believe that small handful represents globally?
I am willing to bet you that the Assassin class is one of the most popular professions in GW, in PvE AND PvP.
And that number is not just on this silly forum where people cry all the time.
The number is represented globally. I see 1 Sin for every 4 professions on average in GW.
And I am also willing to bet you that Factions release triggered Anet's income by 20% if not more from Asian players.
I for one, hated Prophicies. So there you go. Do not think just because the masses in the FORUM voted Prophicies as the best, that it represents everyone globally. That number only stands for the FORUM, who visits these forums? pffft.

But you also have to know, that there are a lot of white American racists out there, SOO racist that is comical. They are so racist that when they see a black/asian profession in game, they get angry about people using another ethnicity group other than white.

I can see these issues being applied in the real world too, in politics.
The U.S sees the growth of China and does not want to be overpowered by the East, therefore the U.S does everything it can to degrade China. Example? "FREE TIBET FREE TIBET" Remember those barking white Americans?

Do you see the similarity going on here? Assassins become useful, the QQers here attempts to bring them back down.

Lesson over, let your mind go wild.

I think someone failed their Sense Motive check... (Or is that Passive Insight now?) I also think someone is showing their own prejudices.

Nowhere in the post you replied to did I say that I agreed with the Assassin-haters. In fact, by supporting the person who pointed out that they were counterable (if by countering the chain that follows if not Palm Strike itself), I thought I was making it reasonably clear that I didn't without spelling it out explicitly.

Although Reverend does have at least one good point - the tendency of Assassin spells and attacks to antisynergise is... unfortunate.

As a general comment - before putting up the number of Palm Strike 'sins as evidence for brokeness - keep in mind that it's an option that's only just become available, so on the one side you have people trying it out who may stop using it once the novelty wears off, and on the other side there's only been a month or so for people to adapt. There's still enough time for it to be absorbed by the meta without dominating it - it's if they end up settling in for the long hall like IWAY that will make it clearly unbalanced.

wtfisgoingon · Jan 14, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I think someone failed their Sense Motive check... (Or is that Passive Insight now?) I also think someone is showing their own prejudices.

Nowhere in the post you replied to did I say that I agreed with the Assassin-haters. In fact, by supporting the person who pointed out that they were counterable (if by countering the chain that follows if not Palm Strike itself), I thought I was making it reasonably clear that I didn't without spelling it out explicitly.

Although Reverend does have at least one good point - the tendency of Assassin spells and attacks to antisynergise is... unfortunate.

As a general comment - before putting up the number of Palm Strike 'sins as evidence for brokeness - keep in mind that it's an option that's only just become available, so on the one side you have people trying it out who may stop using it once the novelty wears off, and on the other side there's only been a month or so for people to adapt. There's still enough time for it to be absorbed by the meta without dominating it - it's if they end up settling in for the long hall like IWAY that will make it clearly unbalanced.

Actually mate, I dont form beliefs, I see them, therefore they become my beliefs.

Tyla · Jan 14, 2009, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

But who the hell came up with the bullshit of positioning being important in GW?

Positioning is important in Guild Wars. Line of Sight, avoiding melee and critical hits, avoiding ranged damage... there are a lot of things in positioning which can or can not determine whether you get a kill, or you fail a kill. This is one of the main determining factors of the game, and if you fail to see why, I feel sorry for you. Otherwise, how is it made up?

P.S: That post was pretty amazing, comically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian979

So.....many words.....and here, I can only think of one.

Adapt

Did you even do so much as read it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dome

You failed when you said assassins suck.

Not really.

wtfisgoingon · Jan 15, 2009, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Positioning is important in Guild Wars. Line of Sight, avoiding melee and critical hits, avoiding ranged damage... there are a lot of things in positioning which can or can not determine whether you get a kill, or you fail a kill. This is one of the main determining factors of the game, and if you fail to see why, I feel sorry for you. Otherwise, how is it made up?

I feel sorry for you that you mis-interpreted my statement.
Of course I know that sort of positioning is important, who wouldnt know such basic PvP elements.
What I mean is Shadow Steps.
Whats wrong with Shadow Steps?
All you have explained to me are simple concepts that anyone PvPer would know.
Who made that crap about about Midliners, Backliners, and Frontliners? I am talking about that. Who made that crap about that it was SUPPOSE to be played that way? Each team's Backline,Midline, and Frontline do not stay at their positions 100% of the time, people have to kite, therefore the positions will get crumbled up. Understand silly? If Anet intended PvP to be played as the above three positions, then they would not have invented Shadow Steps.
You still fail to prove to me how Shadow Steps ruin positioning, when positioning becomes diluted throughout the GvG battle.
All I hear is the bullshit about "not be able to pre prot" "shadowsteping 30 feet in an instant is unbalanced" those are the only two crap I hear from QQers who complain about Shadow Steps ruining this "SO-CALLED positioning" concept that was meant to be played.

MMSDome · Jan 15, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Not really.

lol how so> Explain why assassins are bad? Maybe in the pve aspect which is all you know.

credit · Jan 15, 2009, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

lol how so> Explain why assassins are bad? Maybe in the pve aspect which is all you know.

spike in 3, 2, 1

sin dead, next target.

[distracting shot]

c-c-c-c-combo breaker

also, lol guild wars

AKB48 · Jan 15, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

balanced means a viable alternative among others, when you can see a build EVERYWHERE in half of the teams, there might be a problem

Okkkkk....so you are saying meta = unbalanced? But general anti-melee still applies to the palm sins, I don't understand what do you mean by "viable alternative among others".....its just standard anti-melee, you defend against the palm sin the way you would defend against any sins. So I'm not too clear with as to what are you saying. (or try to say)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

btw, after reading your post, your pvp experience seem quite low...

Yes, say that I suck at pvp( face it, that's basically what you are saying, might as well as to get it out) without any backup really helps(after reading my post.....uhmmm OK, that's REALLY clear)

wtfisgoingon · Jan 15, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

yes, blocking can counter melee, any kind of melee

and, you know what ? anti melee hexes / conditions can shut them down too

but that doesn't make PS sins balanced

balanced means a viable alternative among others, when you can see a build EVERYWHERE in half of the teams, there might be a problem

btw, after reading your post, your pvp experience seem quite low...

Maybe it isnt because it is unbalanced, maybe because thats the only elite skill worth/viable carrying on a Sin.

there's a WoH monk in every GvG, do you call that unbalance too or do you call the rest of the skills unworthy of carrying?

LifesRestorer · Jan 15, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

You still fail to prove to me how Shadow Steps ruin positioning, when positioning becomes diluted throughout the GvG battle.
All I hear is the bullshit about "not be able to pre prot" "shadowsteping 30 feet in an instant is unbalanced" those are the only two crap I hear from QQers who complain about Shadow Steps ruining this "SO-CALLED positioning" concept that was meant to be played.

I really can't tell if you're a troll or just a genuine brain midget.

Positioning does not become diluted throughout the GvG battle. It is continually reassigned as the match goes on, with the whole team unit moving either backwards or forwards in it's respected 'positioning lines'

The only time positioning comes somewhat 'diluted' is a push for a morale boost, which can include having to sacrifice important positioning by having to bodyblock or having to run through enemy lines compressing the space between players to get a snare on the runner. You will often see when this tactic is carried out that damage is dished out at a much faster rate, as it is easier for melee to swap targets and deal damage effectively as the distance between each player is considerably shorter.

To answer your question...
Why positioning is important

Think of it like football, or any game that involves the passing of a ball. Players spread out to make it easier to pass to them as they are less likely to be intercepted over longer distances (good positioning, less risk). If players are too close together, this makes it extremely easy for defenders to steal the ball (warrior target switching made easier, easier to score kills). If players are too far apart, passes become too hard as the ball can't travel the desired distance, or begins to slow down towards the end, once again making it easier for defenders to intercept the loose ball (overextending, healing is more delayed as the target is no longer in cast range)

Relating this to why shadowsteps are overpowered

Think of all the work that goes into any sport in terms of good positioning.
Think of how defenders their formation up to make scoring a goal/touchdown 100x harder than if they weren't there.
Now, imagine the player with the ball being able to teleport (shadowstep) through this line of defense at will without putting any effort into shimmying or faking movements (target swapping) to score an almost certified goal/touchdown (kill).

The point I am getting at in this post is that positioning, spacing yourselves out is one of the fundemental keys to survival in guild wars, as it provides a partywide defense to your team. Shadowsteps completely negate this form of defense, giving the player a gigantic advantage over those who don't have shadowsteps.

wtfisgoingon · Jan 15, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

I really can't tell if you're a troll or just a genuine brain midget.

Positioning does not become diluted throughout the GvG battle. It is continually reassigned as the match goes on, with the whole team unit moving either backwards or forwards in it's respected 'positioning lines'

The only time positioning comes somewhat 'diluted' is a push for a morale boost, which can include having to sacrifice important positioning by having to bodyblock or having to run through enemy lines compressing the space between players to get a snare on the runner. You will often see when this tactic is carried out that damage is dished out at a much faster rate, as it is easier for melee to swap targets and deal damage effectively as the distance between each player is considerably shorter.

To answer your question...
Why positioning is important

Think of it like football, or any game that involves the passing of a ball. Players spread out to make it easier to pass to them as they are less likely to be intercepted over longer distances (good positioning, less risk). If players are too close together, this makes it extremely easy for defenders to steal the ball (warrior target switching made easier, easier to score kills). If players are too far apart, passes become too hard as the ball can't travel the desired distance, or begins to slow down towards the end, once again making it easier for defenders to intercept the loose ball (overextending, healing is more delayed as the target is no longer in cast range)

Relating this to why shadowsteps are overpowered

Think of all the work that goes into any sport in terms of good positioning.
Think of how defenders their formation up to make scoring a goal/touchdown 100x harder than if they weren't there.
Now, imagine the player with the ball being able to teleport (shadowstep) through this line of defense at will without putting any effort into shimmying or faking movements (target swapping) to score an almost certified goal/touchdown (kill).

The point I am getting at in this post is that positioning, spacing yourselves out is one of the fundemental keys to survival in guild wars, as it provides a partywide defense to your team. Shadowsteps completely negate this form of defense, giving the player a gigantic advantage over those who don't have shadowsteps.

I think you are the brain midget.
When the frontline goes for backline, the frontline's healer will have to also follow in, in order to heal the frontline who has now entered the enemy's backline. This is a form of blending in. And if the monk retreats backward when enemy's frontline goes for the him, the positioning = off. If the monk kites to the left or right, the positioning is also off, anywhere the monk goes off out of range of the frontline, = off.

Now you say the Shadow Stepper will teleport straight to the backline and land a score? if the Shadowstepper goes in, he also dies, he will be overwhelmed by the enemy's entire team. Different story if the Frontline Shadow Stepper's healer also move into range with the Stepper.

BTW. Comparing football/shadowstepping = fail comparison.
GW PvP is not the same as football where you have to break in to land a touch down.

draxynnic · Jan 15, 2009, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

Actually mate, I dont form beliefs, I see them, therefore they become my beliefs.

Do you know how arrogant that sounds?

What you see is coloured by your own experiences and indoctrination. What others see is coloured by their experiences and indoctrination.

I'd go into more detail, but I don't want to hijack this thread any further or get you, me, or this site in trouble with any outside parties that may take offense.

Going back on topic... it seems that one thing that should have been introduced into the game along with shadowsteps is anti-shadowstep defenses - something like a ward that does not allow shadowstepping within that area. Heck, you could even just add this capability to Ward against Foes - seems reasonable that a ward designed to slow down enemies from getting to your throat could also be used to prevent teleportation.

Something like when the Paragon came out, when it appeared alongside a whole bunch of Necromancer skills that pretty much shut them down completely.

Damian979 · Jan 15, 2009, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Did you even do so much as read it?

I was actually referring to the thread in general to which yes, I have read it. 5 pages about one over buffed skill being scaled back is excessive.

What you would be referring to would be the 25 paragraphs detailing what 100 threads over the past two years have already explained about the assassin class as a whole. Which I don't disagree with, but it struggles to remain relevant in a thread about Palm Strike being nerfed.